Congratulations to the Montreal Alouettes

[Saskfan in Winnipeg]

Congratulations to the Alouettes. They deserve to be Grey Cup Champions.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

I'm not entirely convinced that they were completely the better team today, but there is little argument that they were the best team over the course of the season and will very much be worthy champs.

There will be a lot of decisions that will be second-guessed and debated from a Rider standpoint, but I hope, for the sake of fairness, that Miller isn't saddled with the too many men call the way Don Cherry was from his NHL coaching days with the Bruins... though he's somehow managed to find his way through it.

As an aside, I was thoroughly impressed with the Rider fan contingent today... they did themselves proud.

[Saskfan in Winnipeg]

I don't think Miller has to be worried. A lot of fans have been disappointed with Kavis Reed's coaching all season. Getting Armstead probably saved his job, but this may cost him it.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

There were at least a few calls that will be questioned, but a few of the biggest were to do with Special Teams... the too many men, and Armstrong not giving up the single when the kickoff forced him so deep.

Among the others that Rider fans were lamenting post-game were Miller's flip-flop to first accept the procedure penalty when Duvall missed the coffin corner (which was the actual mistake IMO), and then when they repeated the same penalty with the same result, they declined the penalty.  At that point, the Als were ten yards back and had just run their cover team downfield twice.

The other, was not giving up the safety at the end of the game and choosing to punt from their 15.  Let me say that the textbook clearly states that you don't give up the tying points like that, and I don't feel that any coach should be questioned for not doing it.  With that said, it would've been a ballsy call to shoot for OT and a chance to regroup.  Punting from your 15, with a 35-40 yard average net on punts, will normally hand over possession on the Rider side of mid-field... a scant first down from realistic field goal range and the winning points.  Even though Duval had a terrible game, it's tough to bet the game on being able to stop them at that point.  The big punt and the resulting bobble on the return made the decision somewhat of a moot point... it was absoutely the right call to make given the field possession it netted.

I do wonder how much Duvall's struggles played into it, as well as how much the new rule on safeties factored in.  Afterall, they'd have still been kicking off to the Als from their own 25, now tied up and giving the Al's 40 seconds to drive for a single point.

[Esk Reporter]

I don't think Miller has to be worried. A lot of fans have been disappointed with Kavis Reed's coaching all season. Getting Armstead probably saved his job, but this may cost him it.

There are a couple of things that I would like to know...  The first is who was on the field when they were not supposed to be?  The second thing is who was responsible for counting the players in the huddle before the play ran?  It has become very 'chic' to blame the coaches for everything while the players seem to get off 'scott free'.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.  I would be surprised if Reed was fired, because frankly it is not his job to count the players on the field...at least it shouldn't be!

[Saskfan in Winnipeg]

The Riders aren't saying who was supposed to come off, only that a player on the field missed the play call and stayed on the field.

This was our fourth too many men penalty on the special teams this year. That's four too many and I remember entire seasons when we didn't get that particular penalty.

Reed calls the play and is responsible for the people who should or shouldn't be out there. Once it's called, he should be watching and making sure people are in the right positions. Also, he should spot when somebody shouldn't be there. At a minimum, he should have somebody spotting to make sure.

This mistake is one of many that Reed has made this season. I've seen way too many screwups by our special teams this year. On average, our special teams have been very sloppy.

That's not to say the players aren't blameless. If you're on the field and used to practising a certain alignment, you should know who is beside you and who shouldn't be. The guys in the spotter's booth should be counting, too - but sometimes they're looking at the other team's alignments on the assumption that our guys know what they're doing.

[Hambone]

The scuttlebutt I'm hearing is that in all likelihood Armstead was the guy who shouldn't have been on the field. Somebody I listened today talked about how they were going with their "B" package, perhaps "B" meaning block. Most likely is was a simple breakdown in communications on the sidelines in getting the message to all involved. How that responsibility is doled out I guess could depend on the team process i.e. is Reed expected to run up and down the sidelines to communicate to each player individually? Presumably some of the players in the FG defence unit would be on the field playing defence so he can't communicate to them. So if Armstead was the extra guy either Reed failed to tell him or the player who would go into block in lieu of the returner neglected to tap Armstead on the shoulder. Or perhaps Armstead himself neglected to pay attention. Given the situation being up by 2 it definitely made no sense to have somebody back to return the kick as Duval was the only Alouette eligible to recover it. Usually it is the returner who you see counting heads. Ironically the same guy may have been the 13th man. Maybe in the heat of the action and excitement of the moment he forgot to count himself?

[Saskfan in Winnipeg]

Armstead was on for the second kick, so I don't think it was him. Whoever it was, they were still on the field from the previous play and didn't get the call.

Considering we've been burned by this error three times before the Grey Cup, I expect everybody to know what the heck they are doing.

I doubt that Armstead would be the guy communicating simply because he's too far away. I would believe that there would be somebody near the line who steps back, counts and then moves into position. That person would be better able to communicate and correct any errors, or even run off the field if he counts 13.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

On TSN, Naylor is reporting that it was Sean Lucas who was on for the first, but off for the second attempt.

This would seem to fly in the face of the "block" call, as presumably, the block was all the more crucial having moved them 10 yards closer, making the field goal that much easier if not blocked... though as we saw earlier, the Rider braintrust wasn't against changing their mind.

I respect the Rider organization for not singling anyone out.  I respect Reed for stepping up and taking accountability.  I also respect that it's not unthinkable that changes will be made as a result, not only of that one play, but as Jim says, a series of ST errors.  It won't be unlike when Higgins left Edmonton... a lot of folks talked about it being based on a fake punt that didn't work in the playoff game in 2004, but it was obviously based on much more than the one play.

[Esk Reporter]

I respect the Rider organization for not singling anyone out.  I respect Reed for stepping up and taking accountability.  I also respect that it's not unthinkable that changes will be made as a result, not only of that one play, but as Jim says, a series of ST errors.  It won't be unlike when Higgins left Edmonton... a lot of folks talked about it being based on a fake punt that didn't work in the playoff game in 2004, but it was obviously based on much more than the one play.

Agreed...  While Reed has taken the blame publicly, clearly it was not him that actually made the mistake.  Like I said, it will be interesting to see how this plays out?

[Saskfan in Winnipeg]

I would like to see how it plays out, too.

Some people on another board think I'm looking for a scapegoat, but I have a natural desire to know exactly what happened in this situation. Reed says there was a "miscommunication" - why was there a miscommunication? How did it occur? Who was involved?

Was a player told to go on, but another guy wasn't pulled off? Did somebody miss hearing the play as per one of the initial reports? (That one bothers me - why are you on the field if YOU DON'T KNOW THE PLAY?) Or, did they mishear the play?

Our special teams did improve in the second half of the season, but we were still susceptible to big returns by other teams, much more than we were a few years ago. I'm not comfortable in giving Reed another chance.

The Riders made other mistakes that impacted the game, but this one is front and centre and I think it should be. This is a catastrophic mental error of which, based on prior history during the season, the team was aware and should not have happened again, especially in a Grey Cup.

[Argonut]

Understandable Jim on why you want to know. But after what happened in 2004 it's a safe bet that the team wants to protect whoever was truly at fault. Be it a player or coach or both.

[Saskfan in Winnipeg]

It's looking more and more like it's Sean Lucas, but Coach Miller indicated that about four people were supposed to be counting players as well.

I feel bad for Lucas and I hope he bounces back next year.

Besides, I'd like the Riders to win one with Dressler, even though this one would have been nice for Morgan. If the Riders had won, Dressler's name wouldn't have been on the Grey Cup.

[Colin Unger]

I was having a conversation with my bro and another friend last night about the Grey Cup game. I suggested that despite the fact that the Riders beat us to win the Cup a few years ago that this Riders team was in fact the better Rider team.  Had these Riders played against Dinwiddie the game wouldn't have been close.

Agreed?

[Green is the Colour]

Not sure I agree with that.

The '07 Riders were a talented bunch and I think what caught up to them that week was the same thing that caught up to the 2001 Blue Bombers.  They took their opposition for granted and almost got stung, unlike the Bombers who did get stung in '01.